Thank you. I couldn't agree more... yet I have fallen into this trap. I just began my new exercise regimin to slim down, tone up and all that jazz. I can tell people it's "because I want to be healthy" and "my doctor said exercise five times a week, or have a heart attack by age 35" (which is true... my bad cholesterol isn't bad, but the good cholesterol is waaaayyy too low)

But the truth is, I want to look and feel pretty. I've tweezed my eyebrows to the perfect arch... to the point where people complement my eyebrows. (really, they do) I've spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on makeup, skin care, hair dye and long lasting lipsticks. But, I'm still single with no plans for a Friday night. All my brains, LotR obbsessions, singing ability and love of playing outdoors hasn't landed me the right man... so I'll be lifting weights and doing cardio until I feel better about me.

If this isn't featured, I won't know why. Great article Tex. You put things so well.

SHE:

I couldn't agree more... yet I have fallen into this trap. I just began my new exercise regimin to slim down, tone up and all that jazz. I can tell people it's "because I want to be healthy" and "my doctor said exercise five times a week, or have a heart attack by age 35"

It's hard not to...it's very difficult to fight the strong messages we're sent about attractiveness...how important physical beauty is as well as what, exactly, physical beauty is. We play the game.

I've tweezed my eyebrows to the perfect arch... to the point where people complement my eyebrows. (really, they do)

I believe it. Hehe.

I've spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on makeup, skin care, hair dye and long lasting lipsticks. But, I'm still single with no plans for a Friday night. All my brains, LotR obbsessions, singing ability and love of playing outdoors hasn't landed me the right man... so I'll be lifting weights and doing cardio until I feel better about me.

Exactly. If they realized how much fun you'd be to hang out with and how you could engage them for hours on end in conversation that they could actually enjoy...if they knew all the special and wonderful things about you, they'd never be able to let you go...but so long as you don't have a 23 inch waist and bulging breasts, many guys will never know this about you. (Btw, I've seen your pic, and I personally think you're a complete knock-out).

But what can you do? You (and I) want to be pretty, so we'll keep feeding the beast, doing whatever we can to make ourselves look more like Jessica Simpson or Angelina Jolie. It's discouraging at best...

If this isn't featured, I won't know why. Great article Tex. You put things so well.

Thank you so, so, much for that.

I know what you mean, Tex.

Back in high school, I fell into this way of thinking. I thought "I don't have the clothes which flatter my body, sleek, thick hair and a perfect smile." I thought myself to be inferior to the other girls. Then, I dated a guy who reinforced those images you wrote about. It made feel even worse.

There was a guy I knew of in high school who wouldn't speak to girls unless they were super pretty/model-like. I didn't quite believe it. So one day (through a friend's e-mail), I found his AIM and started a conversation with him. It was all going fine until he asked who I was. IWhen he did, he ended the conversation. I couldn't even look at him in class anymore.

Ultimately, it comes down the woman herself saying "those images are bull" and rejecting them outright.

Beautifully written article, Tex. What is defined these days as physical beauty is a grotesque macabre for the real woman.

How are you going to be able to hold a conversation with that vapid,perk-titted, size two woman 25 years later? Probably not as well as you would with the size 10 woman who speaks her mind.

Beauty is found in brains.

(Btw, I've seen your pic, and I personally think you're a complete knock-out).

Awww. I'm blushing and saying you're full of it, but still blushing.

Then, I dated a guy who reinforced those images you wrote about. It made feel even worse.

Ouch. I know the feeling. I dated a guy who didn't like the person I had become, and because I though I loved him, I had a real battle trying to reconcil what he wanted with what I was. He dumped me for not being easy enough, and went after this supper skinny chick rumored to be a slut (I say rumored because I have no proof) so there went my self image.

Ultimately, it comes down the woman herself saying "those images are bull" and rejecting them outright.

Easier said than done, but good advice none the less.

I'm guilty as charged... i'm a sucker for a beautiful woman, like so many other men.

but...

I'm a fan of natural beauty. or maybe i'm just rationalizing here. I dig women who can get ready in 15 minutes. The ones that don't have to wear a lb. of make-up to be pretty. The ones that don't get their hair frosted, their lips injected, and their tits implanted. The ones who are secure in who they are, and don't feel like they have to conform to the standards that Cosmo and Maxim set forth for them.

So does that make me a bad person? am I so shallow? where do you draw the line between taking pride in your appearance and being some creation made of make-up and silicon?

your article starts out w/ a series of questions about what makes a woman beautiful... I'll let you in on a little secret and hopefully the other male JUsers will back me up on this... we men don't notice each detail... the details are for you to worry about if you feel it necesary. We notice the overall package, or at least I do. without looking at a picture of my current flame, I couldn't tell you what shape her eyebrows are, or whether her lips are full and pouty... i just know that there's a certain chemical reaction in my brain when i look at her. I know that i was physically attracted to her from the first moment i laid eyes on her. That she is attracted to me in a similar way is almost too much for me to bear at times.

As you so daftly pointed out, finding out how beautiful a woman is involves talking to her. In the last 6 weeks, i've spent more time on the phone talking to Michelle than I've spent with her in person, because i only get to see her on weekends. So I guess that means i can see her inner beauty then...

See, that part about the single mom not getting a man's attention, you're right and wrong. There are men who are not hung up on looks, they can see a woman's inner beauty and see them for who they really are. And God love them for that. But that's not me. I want the whole package. I want a woman that excites my mind as well as my loins. (if i can borrow that line)... beauty fades, you're absolutely right, but I've seen couples that have taken care of themselves over the years. They're 'middle-aged', and yet with a healthy diet and regular exercise, they've managed to stay in good physical shape. Notice, I did not say "with the help of plastic surgery and liposuction."

basically what I'm trying to say is that there are those of us out there who have no interest in chasing women who take no pride in their appearance. At the same time, I have no interest in dating a supermodel either. I just want the plain Jane, the girl next door. The one that's somewhere in between, and yet she's committed herself to a lifestyle that's going to keep her fit and healthy for years to come.

I'm talking about a happy medium.

and we've all seen your pictures TW... you're a very beautiful woman, so forgive me for saying this, but you lose some of your credibility in trying to pick up the flag and crusade for the women who were not blessed in the looks department. You also told us once that your relationship w/ Adrian was founded on rampant lust (or something along those lines)... so I would venture so far as to say that physical attraction at the beginning of your relationship w/ your husband was an important aspect... I would even venture to guess that you're still turned on by him after all these years. That's not to say that you would love him any less if all his hair fell out and he gained 70 lbs, but c'mon Tex... given the choice between an overweight slob who takes no pride in his appearance and a physically fit soldier that fills out his uniform just right, which one would you prefer?

The point I want to make to you and anyone who reads my stupid rant is this: There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your appearance and wanting to look good! it's only when we take it to extremes and buy into the hype that it becomes a problem! In true American style, we take a good thing and overdo it, hence the botox, the tanning beds, and hell, even the steroids.

and i'm so going to shut up now before my comment exceeds the length of your original article.

You need to write this bit down as a poem and leave it as is (I edited it a bit to put it in form).  It's really a great point on its own, isn't it?:

I see a culture of men who are scared of real women-
Who would rather have sex with themselves than get to know a woman
who isn't Playboy-approved

This isn't likely to change anytime soon

So, until then, we women will keep up with the crunches and the salad lunches
The implants and the highlights and collagen injections
In hopes that we'll warrant a second glance

Sad

Interesting article.

I have thought about these things, actually...what makes a woman attractive. My wife, I am so incredibly attracted to her....but she does not "fit" in pretty much all of those descriptions listed. But, good God, when she walks into the room....

Would I be lying, though, if i said that I am not "into" all the other things you listed? Sure, I know I would be lying. But, to me....those things are just good to look at and go, "wow".

Great example of what I am trying to say is this. When I used to really watch lots of porn, Jeanna Fine was one of the more popular stars in that industry. Now, to me....she was possibly THE sexiest woman I have personally ever seen. Sure, her breasts were fake....but they still looked great. To me, she was the perfect woman, sexually speaking. BUT....I never really thought of her as beautiful....or even really pretty. But, damn, did I ever think she was HOTT!!!, and still do today. But, she was not "pretty"....she was not "beautiful".....especially NOT in the same way as I find my wife to be.

Now, I personally think my wife is knock-out gorgeous....is that "truth in reality"? In my reality, it is....Would I like her to lose some weight, and be "sexy" (well, how about "sexier")? Sure....I am a red-blooded male....but, I am not going to leave her or anything if she doesn't.

To me....sexy and beautiful are two completely DIFFERENT things....They can go hand-in-hand....BUT, I think for a woman (i.e. my wife), to be beautiful AND sexy...well, perhaps it is all in the "eyes of the beholder". Well....but then again, there does seem to be plenty of guys trying to ask my wife out (she works at the local McDonalds)....so, who knows?

Women are fucking shallow, too, Brandie, you have to admit.

A lot of girls like muscle guys with big cars and fat wallets. And don't tell me that all those jocks that were fucking the pretty girls in high school got those girls because they were pretty boys "on the inside."

Dunno. I like pretty girls. But I don't think I'm shallow. I see the point of this article, but I think you're missing the bigger picture: most human beings are shallow idiots. I mean, you read this site, it should be painfully obvious.

Personally, I like a woman to have a decent grasp of grammar. I can overlook a bit of an overbite and some stretch marks for that.

Myrrander....I agree.

my sisters and my sister-in-law are prime examples of this.

My youngest sister met this "bad boy" (well, he was dealing and doing drugs, partying, cheating on her, ect). She ends up pregnant. Fast-forward nearly 2 years. He is in jail, and she starts visiting him in jail. He promises her the world...he has changed....he is not the same person he used to be. Fast-forward to his release. They move in together, rent an apartment...an apartment he picked out. While she is working, he is sleeping with another girl across the street....yeah, he knew she lived there when they moved in...and yeah, that is the reason he wanted to move there (sex with another girl, and have a different girl pay for it). Even after all of this, she was still enamored with his "bad boy" image, that she was still wanting to be with him....

My sister-in-law....meets some scum (drugs, booze, and cheating on her with every woman that would sleep with him).She gets pregnant....he promises her the world....until she starts putting on weight due to there is a baby growing inside her. He drops her like a bad habit. She has the baby, she loses all her weight...can fit in thos tight jeans and little shirts....he comes back, and for just a little while, she falls for the "bad boy" again. Until she learns AGAIN that he is cheating on her. So, what does she do? She falls for another loser "bad boy"....her baby's daddy's brother....the same guy the little brother learned from. Needless to say, she was screwed in that relationship also (quite literally...).

Why do women waste their time with guys like that? I will never understand....I will never understand how a woman would fall for a guy that treats her like a prostitute, demanding God knows what....all the while, hopped up on drugs, stoned out on alcohol.....and why would she just keep falling in line, taking him back....

I know why....from all 3 of them (and countless others I have spoken to)...."they are just so cute....look at his butt....he is just so hot!!! tee hee...."

Well...not all folks who use drugs are bad. tee-hee

but I see what you're saying

My main point is: most humans are dolts and are wonderful arguments for eugenics.

Well if you give me the time of day and you're not a totally psycho then you're beautiful in my book....I find good taste in men very attractive

Your 100% correct,Tex. But I plead guilty and ask for mercy. There is, after all, a few billion years of evolution saying I gotta dig the T & A...

Dusk:

There was a guy I knew of in high school who wouldn't speak to girls unless they were super pretty/model-like. I didn't quite believe it. So one day (through a friend's e-mail), I found his AIM and started a conversation with him. It was all going fine until he asked who I was. IWhen he did, he ended the conversation. I couldn't even look at him in class anymore.

Wow. What a bastard. That's hard to wrap my head around. Geez.

Ultimately, it comes down the woman herself saying "those images are bull" and rejecting them outright.

I agree...so hard to do, though. As much as I want a daughter, in some ways I am grateful that I am not having to try to teach a young girl about all this junk. I can't imagine the pressure that mothers of daughters have.

Alison:

Beautifully written article, Tex.

Thank you.

What is defined these days as physical beauty is a grotesque macabre for the real woman.

Very well put.

How are you going to be able to hold a conversation with that vapid,perk-titted, size two woman 25 years later? Probably not as well as you would with the size 10 woman who speaks her mind. Beauty is found in brains.

Absolutely. While I do believe that physical attraction is an important element in a relationship, I think that physical attraction is being manipulated by these insane societal standards, and that's really sad.

SHE:

Awww. I'm blushing and saying you're full of it, but still blushing.

It's hard to believe it when people say it, isn't it? I go through that all the time. But I'm not flattering you. I am quite envious.

Ouch. I know the feeling. I dated a guy who didn't like the person I had become, and because I though I loved him, I had a real battle trying to reconcil what he wanted with what I was. He dumped me for not being easy enough, and went after this supper skinny chick rumored to be a slut (I say rumored because I have no proof) so there went my self image.

I have experienced that kind of thing myself. And it's hard to manage your self-esteem when you are sent such a powerful message. It's hell.

Easier said than done, but good advice none the less.

Yep, I agree.

imajinit:

So does that make me a bad person? am I so shallow? where do you draw the line between taking pride in your appearance and being some creation made of make-up and silicon?

I think that's the big question that most women struggle with...at what point does it go from "looking your best" to feeding the beast of unrealistic and completely shallow beauty standards? I don't know. I struggle with that.

your article starts out w/ a series of questions about what makes a woman beautiful... I'll let you in on a little secret and hopefully the other male JUsers will back me up on this... we men don't notice each detail... the details are for you to worry about if you feel it necesary. We notice the overall package, or at least I do.

I read somewhere that the first thing men notice is smile, followed by figure, then hair. I don't know if this is true, but it would fall closely in line with what you've said...a general overview of a person rather than meticulous study of details. However, it's the details that make the entire package. If these things are not important to "beauty," then why do men's magazines and movies and everything else in the frickin world only feature women who line up with all these details?

As you so daftly pointed out, finding out how beautiful a woman is involves talking to her. In the last 6 weeks, i've spent more time on the phone talking to Michelle than I've spent with her in person, because i only get to see her on weekends. So I guess that means i can see her inner beauty then...

I hope you aren't thinking that I am directing this article at you. I mean no offense. This is something I think about a lot, and while your article got the wheels to spinning once again, this article is certainly not a jab at you. I've no right or place to criticize your relationship or what you feel for your girlfriend. If you are happy and feel that she is a great match for you, then that's all that matters, and I wouldn't dare question that.

See, that part about the single mom not getting a man's attention, you're right and wrong. There are men who are not hung up on looks, they can see a woman's inner beauty and see them for who they really are. And God love them for that. But that's not me. I want the whole package. I want a woman that excites my mind as well as my loins. (if i can borrow that line)... beauty fades, you're absolutely right, but I've seen couples that have taken care of themselves over the years. They're 'middle-aged', and yet with a healthy diet and regular exercise, they've managed to stay in good physical shape. Notice, I did not say "with the help of plastic surgery and liposuction."

This type of attitude...these lofty expectations...frustrate me. If all men thought like this, where would we non-Maxim women be? And it seems that this attitude is more and more prevalent. I really hope that I can teach my boys better than this.

basically what I'm trying to say is that there are those of us out there who have no interest in chasing women who take no pride in their appearance.

Yes, but what equates pride in appearance? How much work and attention must be paid to one's physical appearance in order to attract a man?

It seems that you, like many men, want a woman that is naturally a knock-out...easy going, low maintenance, perfect body, charm, all the works...you say you don't desire a woman that goes to extremes for her appearance, but you don't know what it takes for a woman to look like the adorable, plain jane girl-next-door.

Does pride in appearance mean that a woman must diet and work out constantly so that she can wear a size six? Does pride in appearance mean that a woman must forgo sweats and a pony tail for jeans and a tight top and full hair and make up to walk the dog or lounge around the house for a movie day? Can her nails be short and unpolished? Can she be 10, 20, 30 pounds overweight? Can she have crooked teeth? Can she wear her glasses instead of contacts? Can she wear something comfortable?

As you said before, where do we draw the line? How much of our already maxed-out attention must be devoted to superficial things?

I'm talking about a happy medium.

Possibly you are...and if you've found that woman that's a happy medium, good for you. Just know that most of us have to work very hard for that girl-next-door thing that men seem to think is ever so natural.

and we've all seen your pictures TW... you're a very beautiful woman, so forgive me for saying this, but you lose some of your credibility in trying to pick up the flag and crusade for the women who were not blessed in the looks department.

I thank you for that, it's a very flattering comment, but in reality, I am of average looks, if that. But even if I were beautiful, I don't see how that would hinder my ability to speak out about this.

You also told us once that your relationship w/ Adrian was founded on rampant lust (or something along those lines)... so I would venture so far as to say that physical attraction at the beginning of your relationship w/ your husband was an important aspect... I would even venture to guess that you're still turned on by him after all these years.

You definitely have me there. But I don't think Adrian and I have a relationship that anyone should emulate. We were teenagers when we met and still teenagers when we married, and there have been plenty of ramifications because of this.

I do believe that physical attraction is important. I really do. But I think that what, exactly, is physically attractive has been dictated to us by the society we live in. And I think that's incredibly messed up.

That's not to say that you would love him any less if all his hair fell out and he gained 70 lbs, but c'mon Tex... given the choice between an overweight slob who takes no pride in his appearance and a physically fit soldier that fills out his uniform just right, which one would you prefer?

I am very happy with his appearance, this is true. But believe it or not, I am not so hung up on that. Who he is makes me happy, and that affects the way I see him. I've been with him long enough to see him in many different states and with varying appearances, and it has never affected my feelings of attraction to him.

The point I want to make to you and anyone who reads my stupid rant is this: There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your appearance and wanting to look good! it's only when we take it to extremes and buy into the hype that it becomes a problem! In true American style, we take a good thing and overdo it, hence the botox, the tanning beds, and hell, even the steroids. and i'm so going to shut up now before my comment exceeds the length of your original article.

I really do appreciate your comments. It's been very interesting reading them and thinking about them. And while it may seem that I am hypocritical in my thoughts on this, it's really more about me being at war with myself...trying to put the puzzle together...to reconcile what I believe with what is necessary in today's world. It's very confusing to be a woman.

Karma:

You need to write this bit down as a poem and leave it as is (I edited it a bit to put it in form). It's really a great point on its own, isn't it?:

Very cool. I never would have noticed that. Thanks!

Mino:

My wife, I am so incredibly attracted to her....but she does not "fit" in pretty much all of those descriptions listed. But, good God, when she walks into the room....

I like hearing that...because to me that shows that you see her for more than just her appearance...that her appearance is enhanced by the beautiful woman that she is inside...and you see that.

To me, she was the perfect woman, sexually speaking. BUT....I never really thought of her as beautiful....or even really pretty. But, damn, did I ever think she was HOTT!!!, and still do today. But, she was not "pretty"....she was not "beautiful".....especially NOT in the same way as I find my wife to be.

That's where I have a big problem. You see, your porn star gal is not a real woman. Her life revolves around lining up to a standard that has been deemed by society as "sexy." So your wife can accept being beautiful but not "HOTT" and go on about her life, or if she wants to be electrically sexually desirable to her husband, she must devote the bulk of her time and attention (and money) to being "sexy."

Maybe what I wish for is impossible, but why can't a woman be sexy as hell without over-sized lips and huge breasts and a tiny waist? What makes a porn star sexy? It's the very things I outlined in the beginning of my article. This is what men require in order for a woman to top out on the arousal scale.

Now, I personally think my wife is knock-out gorgeous....is that "truth in reality"? In my reality, it is....Would I like her to lose some weight, and be "sexy" (well, how about "sexier")? Sure....I am a red-blooded male....but, I am not going to leave her or anything if she doesn't.

I don't know what your wife looks like or what size she is, or anything like that, but if she wows you when she walks into the room, why is it that she doesn't wow you in the bedroom? Thin is the only sexy? Losing weight makes one sexier?

This is the male attitude that so infuriates me.

To me....sexy and beautiful are two completely DIFFERENT things....They can go hand-in-hand....BUT, I think for a woman (i.e. my wife), to be beautiful AND sexy...well, perhaps it is all in the "eyes of the beholder".

It's hard for me wrap my head around this. I do appreciate your comments.

Myrrander:

Women are fucking shallow, too, Brandie, you have to admit.

We all are. If women refused to play the game, there would be no game to play. We help nudge things along. We also criticize and judge other women based on those same unrealistic beauty standards. We...I...am not blameless.

A lot of girls like muscle guys with big cars and fat wallets. And don't tell me that all those jocks that were fucking the pretty girls in high school got those girls because they were pretty boys "on the inside."

I'd like to think that it doesn't have to be that way...and that mature women don't operate like this.

Dunno. I like pretty girls. But I don't think I'm shallow.

I hope you don't see yourself in this article, because you're not THAT guy.

I see the point of this article, but I think you're missing the bigger picture: most human beings are shallow idiots.

Did I cover that with "we are a shallow culture"?

Personally, I like a woman to have a decent grasp of grammar. I can overlook a bit of an overbite and some stretch marks for that.

Adorable. (Although I gotta ask why an overbite or stretch marks are things that must be overlooked? Who says these things are ugly? Must they be?)

Mino:

I know why....from all 3 of them (and countless others I have spoken to)...."they are just so cute....look at his butt....he is just so hot!!! tee hee...."

That shows their weakness of character. Ugly on the inside, if you will. Shallow people tend to attract one disastrous relationship after another...I've seen this firsthand.

Toblerone:

Well if you give the time of day and you're not a totally psycho then you're beautiful in my book....I find good taste in men very attractive

Hehehe...wonderful comment.

Shovelheat:

Your 100% correct,Tex. But I plead guilty and ask for mercy. There is, after all, a few billion years of evolution saying I gotta dig the T & A...

The plead guilty and ask for mercy line goes straight to my heart. That's what I wish for...men that at least recognize what's going on. It's a move in the right direction.

While evolution may (does) play a part in physical attraction, a lot of the current "desirable qualities" are society's making. Are over-stuffed lips an evolutionary cue? Protruding ribs don't seem like something that would signal "healthy mating selection"...

(btw, the above mini-rant isn't a criticism of you, Shovelheat, as I find you to be an equal-opportunity perv, hehehehe)

her heart, her soul, her sense of humor, and her magnificent brain.